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Jennifer O.
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![[*]](./images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif) posted on 2-12-05 at 07:05 PM |
Reply #: 30 |
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Thank you,
I did go to the University of Rhode Island pattern web site you linked up to in your discussion.
They seem to be selling CD's that are pricey, but could come in handy for dating, I think. Do you know anyone who has one of these CD's? It isn't
clear if all patterns are dated and good for reserach, or if they are copied for design purposes instead, and may not all have dates etc.
thanks, Jennifer O.
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NovaFashions
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| posted on 2-12-05 at 07:10 PM |
Reply #: 31 |
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Hi Laura,
I'm just quickly checking in but this is facinating!
I do believe I want to start sewing. 
I'll be back with a few questions once I go over everything again.
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sarasattic
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| posted on 2-12-05 at 07:25 PM |
Reply #: 32 |
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oh my gosh....what detail, what info!!
thank you sooo much, l usually pass up on patterns, thinking it'll take me ages to list them etc.....
and so have had some good sales speciallizing in wedding patterns on my ATTIC wedding page...
now l think l'll start gettng some more.... they're like books on fashion actually, it occurs to me....a slice of fashion history...
l'm sold!!
thanks you so much for this very comprehensive lesson!!
sara x
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lauren
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| posted on 2-12-05 at 08:15 PM |
Reply #: 33 |
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This has been fabulous! Thank you very much for the refresher
Oh, where do you get your acid free storage? I usually store mine in clear comic book envelopes. Is that damaging them?
And on the Mccall patterns- there is a double line, which you refer to as the "safety line" I believe. Was the seamstress to cut on the inner or
outer line?
Out of curiosity, what would you recommend as basic pattern price breakdown- I know evening gowns are popular, but say you have a complete day dress
from the 40's with a worn envelope? Or a great 30's pattern but missing a few pieces? Thanks!
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Laura
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| posted on 2-12-05 at 09:46 PM |
Reply #: 34 |
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Jennifer,
Yes, I saw the CDs on the RI Pattern Archives site, but I forgot about it when I answered your first question. I haven't seen the CDs in person, and
I don't know anyone who owns them. However, they look like a great resource for dating patterns.
Did you try the demo they have set up? If you click on "Sample" in the navigation menu on the left-hand side, it will take you to a search feature.
A few of the search results have photos online, but the site says that the CDs contain a lot more information and photos than you can view online.
I agree, it's a lot of money ($260 for a set of 3 CDs), but the entire set covers 1868-1968. According to the site, the CDs contain information for
25,000 patterns.
I think that is probably the closest thing to a comprehensive resource to date patterns that is currently available.
Laura
"Me voy a vivir tranquila
Sin pausa pero sin prisa"
--Rosana Arbelo
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Laura
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| posted on 2-12-05 at 09:57 PM |
Reply #: 35 |
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Lauren,
I buy my comic book bags from a local dealer who specializes in packaging supplies for comic books, magazines, coins, etc. He has the best prices
I've found, and I just buy in bulk (usually 300-500 at a time). That way I'm set for a while.
There are several different types of comic book bags. Apparently, comic books vary in size depending on when they were produced, so they make several
different sizes. You can just choose the size that will fit your patterns. I mostly buy bags/boards for the Silver Age comics, and they measure 7
3/8" x 10 1/2", and it says right on the package, "Archival Quality - PVC Free - Acid Free."
I just make sure that the products I buy and use are labeled archival/acid-free.
Regarding McCall patterns, the seamstress generally would cut outside the seam allowance, on the solid outer line. (I say "generally" because some
seamstresses, then and now, prefer to cut off the seam allowance.)
Thanks for bringing up pricing! I didn't think to put that in the workshop. I'll put that in a separate post.
Laura
"Me voy a vivir tranquila
Sin pausa pero sin prisa"
--Rosana Arbelo
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Laura
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| posted on 2-12-05 at 10:14 PM |
Reply #: 36 |
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Pattern Pricing
This is a very general guide to pattern pricing. Condition, brand, style/fashion design, age and rarity all factor into the final price.
Fashion-forward brands (i.e., Spadea and Vogue Couturier) and brands with outstanding graphics (think early McCall) often command the best prices.
Pricing also depends on who your clientele is. Some sellers command higher prices because they have a loyal following of customers who know and trust
the seller.
I usually won't sell an incomplete pattern unless it is missing only minor pieces (like a sleeve cuff or facing) or it is very rare or unusual.
The prices below are based on my personal experience. They assume that the pattern is complete and in good condition.
Common/General Patterns (such as day dresses):
1920s - $15-$25
1930s - $10-$20
1940s - $10-$15
1950s - $8-$12
1960s - $7-$10
Formal/Evening Dress Patterns:
1920s - $30+
1930s - $50+ ('30s evening dresses are hot right now, especially early to mid '30s)
1940s - $15-$25
1950s - $15-$25
1960s - $10-$15
Give-Away Pattern Booklets:
1920s and earlier - $15-$25 (These tend to be hard to find, and when you do, condition can be a problem. Excellent condition - not brittle or
crumbling - will increase the value)
1930s - $15-$20
1940s - $8-$12
1950s - $6-$10
1960s - $4-$6
Fashion Magazines, such as McCall's or The Delineator. These always have values on the high end if they are intact with color fashion
plates. FULL COLOR illustrations generally make the magazine much more desirable than if they're missing, in black & white, or in one or two-tone
color.
1900s - $12-$30
1910s - $12-$30
1920s - $15-$30
1930s - $15-$40 (Early to mid '30s tend to be more popular & priced higher)
1940s - $10-$15
1950s - $7-$12
That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Are there any other areas/items you're wondering about value?
Laura
"Me voy a vivir tranquila
Sin pausa pero sin prisa"
--Rosana Arbelo
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siouxie12
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| posted on 2-12-05 at 10:16 PM |
Reply #: 37 |
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Hi everyone. This is my first time on this workshop, and I'm very grateful for it!
On dating: One place I've been able to find info on old patterns is the public library. They often have materials dating as far back as the 1920s
for Vogue and McCall patterns, as well as others. The pattern magazines and other publications are often library-bound, with the same hardcover
bindings used for scientific journals and popular magazines.
Sometimes with the older issues, you may have to request them a day or two in advance, as many libraries store older materials off-site and it takes
some time to retrieve them. Others may be available by Interlibrary Loan. But once you've settled on the decade, if your library has the pattern
magazines, or you can obtain them via ILL, you can flip through them to find the exact copyright date for the pattern. You will probably have to use
them on-site in the Library, because these are rare materials that are irreplacable if lost.
Thanks for such a wonderful workshop!
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Laura
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| posted on 2-12-05 at 10:29 PM |
Reply #: 38 |
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Another thing I thought of is something I only recently found out about when I was re-reading Laboissonniere's books. Several of the pattern
companies produced small display mannequins to display samples made from their patterns, as well as small mannequins marketed to young girls so that
they and their dolls could dress alike. Such dolls are usually 12"-15" tall. Laboissonniere writes that McCall used the display mannequins from the
1930s to the 1950s.
He also mentions "half-scale" mannequins for use in fashion schools. I suspect that may be what this one was. She's
37" tall, which seems too large to be intended for store display use.
Here are two smaller dolls.
1942 Latexture 12 1/2" MANNEQUIN DOLL & Patterns NEAT!
VINTAGE 1942 LATEXTURE DOLL MANNEQUIN W/PATTERNS
Prices are all over the place on these. However, I've seen dolls sell for anywhere from $35 to $150.
Laura
"Me voy a vivir tranquila
Sin pausa pero sin prisa"
--Rosana Arbelo
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Laura
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| posted on 2-12-05 at 10:32 PM |
Reply #: 39 |
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Welcome, siouxie!
You're lucky to have a library that has so many materials available on patterns. Do you mean your local library has that information, or is it a
university library?
My local libraries have next to nothing about fashion/pattern/dressmaking history, and I almost always have to get things through interlibrary loan.
It is a wonderful service and well worth the wait!
I am lucky in that I'm pretty close to Ohio State University and only about 4 hours from Kent State. I'm told that OSU has a good costume/fashion
section in their library, and I know Kent State does (due to the fashion school there). University libraries can be great resources!!
Laura
"Me voy a vivir tranquila
Sin pausa pero sin prisa"
--Rosana Arbelo
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MemphisVintage
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| posted on 2-12-05 at 11:43 PM |
Reply #: 40 |
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Thank you Laura for such a great workshop! I have always wondered about so many of the things that you talked about, and know I know. What a
wonderful reference tool this workshop will make!!!!
~ Marlene
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Patentleathershoes
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 12:05 AM |
Reply #: 41 |
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Laura,
I am going to read again because it might have been covered, but i was very interested to read that printed patterns were around since the 1860s.
Reason being is i have seen many "older" (ok, not "older" in the grand scheme of things!) that were unprinted. I have often hesitated when
purchasing these for collecting, using, or any other purpose because they somehow boggle my mind. It is so much more difficult to tell if it is
'all there". Especially if the instructions are not clear or present. I find myself passing them by unless they have really stunning cover art
that i might be able to use as an example later when documenting a style of dress, etc.
I guess my question is...should i have such cold feet about them or do you have any practical advice not so much for "value" but basically ..i guess
wrapping one's brain around them.
Chris
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fuzzylizzie
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 12:09 AM |
Reply #: 42 |
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Laura,
I really like the idea of using interfacing to make the new pattern. Great tip.
I sell lots of patterns in my mall store, but I sell women's designs almost exclusively. Have you had any luck selling men's and childrens? Are
they desirable and collected?
Also, so many of the patterns have tiny measurements. I know that an experienced seamstress has no problem grading a pattern to a larger size, but I
suspect that most sewers just don't have that skill. I pass on tiny sizes unless the design is really something. Am I missing out?
Many thanks,
Lizzie
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cymbeline
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 12:20 AM |
Reply #: 43 |
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Wonderful work Laura!!!!
Im sure I will refer to this many times in the future. I am inspired and have my sewing machine all set up! Thank you.
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Jonathan
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 12:37 AM |
Reply #: 44 |
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Great workshop! I have no questions to date but thought I would mention that I was fortunate enough to have, at one time, an almost complete run of
Modes Royales catalogues Laura and the newest one I had was Spring 1965. I don't know if that was the last one or not, but it helps narrow the last
date of operation a bit.
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TheVintagePeddler
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 12:39 AM |
Reply #: 45 |
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WOW
This is great. SO much wonderful info. Thanks so much Laura. I'm still reading through but no questions yet. Definitely have this bookmarked
because I just bought about 300 patterns today at the auction.
Marie
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lauren
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 12:46 AM |
Reply #: 46 |
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Thanks for answering my questions! This has been absolutely fabulous!!
I'm so glad people love these old patterns as much as I do 
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Contentmentfarm
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 01:47 AM |
Reply #: 47 |
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Laura, thanks so much for all the great information. I know I, like so many others will refer back to this workshop again and again!
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denisebrain
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 04:29 AM |
Reply #: 48 |
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Ditto, ditto, ditto! Great reference!!!!!
I treasure patterns, as they represent a springboard to something magical...your own creation! My favorite clothes have always been those I've
made.
No trouble seeing what your passion is Laura, and I'm sure we all appreciate you sharing it!
(Did I miss something, or aren't you, um, giving birth, like, today or so? You're amazing!)
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blue-eyedcalico
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 07:20 AM |
Reply #: 49 |
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This is very comprehensive and tremendously informative. I've learned quite a bit today - particulaly found the history of patterns very interesting.
I've got a large collection of patterns myself. Started collecting them back in the 1970s. Of course then I collected patterns from the 40s and 50s.
Hard to believe the patterns I bought new when I started sewing in the 70s are now considered vintage (LOL).
carol
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ellenm
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 01:42 PM |
Reply #: 50 |
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I really appreciate reading and learning about patterns. It's all brand new information to me and what a fun way to learn. The VFG is fortunate to
have your expertise.
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blue-eyedcalico
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 04:42 PM |
Reply #: 51 |
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About sizing of Spadea designer patterns... They are cut to Ready to Wear measurements, not standard pattern measurements. For example a size 10 would
measure a 34 bust, whereas the same style in Simplicity or Butterick would be 32 bust for size 10. So if you are a size 10 in Simplicity, you are
still a size 10 in Spadea. The Spadea has included 2 inches of wearing ease into the size. No altering necessary.
I always wondered why the sizing was different in Spadea patterns. Then I got to thinking that maybe it was because the patterns were traced off of
actual designer garments.
Do you have any information or thoughts on this?
carol
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Laura
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 07:55 PM |
Reply #: 52 |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Patentleathershoes
but i was very interested to read that printed patterns were around since the 1860s.
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A terminology clarification to prevent confusion...
When collectors talk about "printed patterns," they generally mean the later, 20th century patterns that are/were printed on tissue. "Unprinted
patterns" refers to the early sized patterns that were pre-cut with holes and notches instead of printed marks. The patterns that were available in
the 1860s fell into one of three categories-
1) Diagrams like the 1876 curiass bodice pattern I showed. Diagrams were printed very small, and the seamstress had to trace the pieces, then enlarge
them to a useable size.
2) "Pattern sheets" or "pattern supplements" (since they were usually a supplemental feature of a book or magazine) like the 1930s German pattern
sheet shown. Pattern sheets are a bunch of different full-size pattern pieces overlapping on one sheet of paper. The seamstress must trace the pieces
she needs, then adjust them to the particular size she needs.
3) "Unprinted patterns" like those pioneered by Butterick. These are full-size pieces of tissue paper cut to shape at the factory with notches and
holes to help guide the seamstress. This type of pattern was available in multiple sizes.
What collectors call "printed patterns" were introduced by McCall in 1919.
| Quote: |
Reason being is i have seen many "older" (ok, not "older" in the grand scheme of things!) that were unprinted. I have often hesitated when
purchasing these for collecting, using, or any other purpose because they somehow boggle my mind. It is so much more difficult to tell if it is
'all there". Especially if the instructions are not clear or present. I find myself passing them by unless they have really stunning cover art
that i might be able to use as an example later when documenting a style of dress, etc.
I guess my question is...should i have such cold feet about them or do you have any practical advice not so much for "value" but basically ..i guess
wrapping one's brain around them.
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Let me see if I can answer without getting too wordy!!
It depends on how much trouble you want to go to. Collectors and many vintage-style seamstresses don't mind unprinted patterns. You get used to them
after a while. And you could be passing up a very good opportunity if you pass them by completely. A good pre-1915 "fancy dress" pattern can go for
$100-$200 if complete.
Unprinted patterns aren't so hard to check for completeness as long as the pattern envelope or instructions include a diagram of the pieces. Most
unprinted pattern pieces are marked with either numbers or letters to help identify them - for example, the envelope says piece A is "Skirt Front",
so you find piece A, and sure enough, it looks like the "Skirt Front" shown on the envelope.
It is a little more difficult if it is a Victorian or early 20th century pattern and it DOESN'T have letters or numbers printed on the pieces.
Occasionally you will come across a pattern that has nothing but holes and notches on the pieces - nothing to identify that "skirt front" as a skirt
front and that "front facing" as the front facing. Such patterns are usually pre-1915, and they're relatively uncommon.
In those cases, you have a couple of choices.
1) You can sell the pattern "as-is." I personally don't spend more than a few dollars on such patterns, but I've seen people go anywhere from
$15-$50 for them.
2) You can count the number of pieces in the envelope and see if it matches the number of pieces the envelope says should be in there. If so, it's
*probably* complete, though you can't guarantee it.
3) If the envelope has a diagram of the pieces on the envelope or on the instructions, you can unfold all the pieces and compare them to the diagram.
It takes some time to do, but in my opinion it's worth it with the old patterns.
Does that help or does it raise more questions?
One other thing I thought to mention (regarding value) is that vintage patterns are a lot like vintage clothing. Excellent examples of high-fashion or
trendy styles are more desirable and valuable than everyday wear. (Someone said that recently on VFG, and I can't remember who it was. Maybe Hollis
or Jonathan?) That is why Modes Royal and Vogue Couturiers and the McCall couturier patterns are usually more valuable than the Simplicity or
Butterick patterns, and why evening patterns are more valuable than daywear patterns. People are looking for the styles that scream their era instead
of the mundane, everyday stuff.
Laura
"Me voy a vivir tranquila
Sin pausa pero sin prisa"
--Rosana Arbelo
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ClubVintage
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 08:03 PM |
Reply #: 53 |
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What a fantastic workshop Laura!  I read it last evening and this morning when I went on my regular Saturday morning treasure hunt thanks to you I found a great
pattern.
I was able to date it right in the store from the information I learned from the generous sharing of your knowledge. McCall dress
pattern..copyright dated 1937...also someone, probably the store where it was sold stamped a date on the inside flap...Oct 7, 1937. I can't thank
you enough for this workshop, I have bunches of patterns squirreled away but was afraid to list, now I can get them dated. Cat 
My Etsy Store-Club Vintage....click below
 My Blog....
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Patentleathershoes
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 08:08 PM |
Reply #: 54 |
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Thanks Laura,
That does answer my question. I mainly have encountered later - 40s/50s that were not printed. One i think was a mail order pattern. Gosh, the
name is on the tip of my tongue!
Chris
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Laura
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 08:08 PM |
Reply #: 55 |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fuzzylizzie
I sell lots of patterns in my mall store, but I sell women's designs almost exclusively. Have you had any luck selling men's and childrens? Are
they desirable and collected?
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Yup, I've noticed the same thing. I'm not sure what it is, but I do have a theory...As far as men, there just aren't that many different men's
patterns out there. It's pretty much the same thing - pajamas, boxers, and shirts. Every now and then you'll see a tie pattern. It just seems that
women didn't sew for men much, and there wasn't much variety produced in the way of men's patterns. And because it's daily wear, generic kinds of
stuff, people just don't seem to be into collecting it or sewing it now.
As far as kids, I think it's because there isn't too much variety in the way of kids stuff, either. Every woman sewed for her kids, so there's a
ton of girls' frilly dress patterns and little boy suits out there. Most of the patterns are pretty run-of-the-mill, which doesn't excite the
collectors. And they're so plentiful that they're a dime a dozen for people who want to sew with the patterns. The only kids patterns I see sell
well are the unusual patterns, usually for older kids - ruffled 1930s party dresses for teen girls, for example.
I guess it still falls into that "unusual sells better than mundane" theory.
I generally avoid men's and children's patterns, unless I see something specific that I want. I find I get enough of usual suspects when I buy large
box lots, so I don't set out specifically to buy them.
| Quote: |
Also, so many of the patterns have tiny measurements. I know that an experienced seamstress has no problem grading a pattern to a larger size, but I
suspect that most sewers just don't have that skill. I pass on tiny sizes unless the design is really something. Am I missing out?
|
You're right that most sewers don't know how/want to grade a pattern up or down, and I get e-mails once in a while asking about patterns in other
sizes. But I still think you are missing out. I think most of us will buy a pattern without considering the size too much. We're addicted in that
way!! We understand that, especially for more unusual styles, we might never see the same or similar pattern in "our" size. Getting a pattern in the
size you want/need is a bonus most of the time.
Size matters even less if you're dealing with good, trendy designs.
Generally speaking, I'm willing to pay a little more if the pattern is a larger size (at least 36" bust, preferably 38" or 40" bust.) But there
are just as many women out there with a 30" or 32" bust, and they need patterns too!
Laura
"Me voy a vivir tranquila
Sin pausa pero sin prisa"
--Rosana Arbelo
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Laura
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 08:12 PM |
Reply #: 56 |
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Jonathan, you were lucky to have an almost complete collection of Modes Royale pattern books! I love the Modes Royale style. It would be neat to be
able to look through all the years of catalogues!
Maggie, you're so nice. I've still got a few weeks left, though, and
I'm still chugging away at work. I'm just slowing down a bit and concentrating more on getting organized rather than turning out more product.
"Me voy a vivir tranquila
Sin pausa pero sin prisa"
--Rosana Arbelo
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Laura
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 08:13 PM |
Reply #: 57 |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by blue-eyedcalico
About sizing of Spadea designer patterns... They are cut to Ready to Wear measurements, not standard pattern measurements.
I always wondered why the sizing was different in Spadea patterns. Then I got to thinking that maybe it was because the patterns were traced off of
actual designer garments.
Do you have any information or thoughts on this?
carol |
Oh, that is such a good point to bring up, Carol!!
Spadea's patterns were cut to the designer's size chart, not to the pattern industry's size chart. So the pattern sizing varied
from designer to designer, even within the Spadea line.
L
"Me voy a vivir tranquila
Sin pausa pero sin prisa"
--Rosana Arbelo
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Laura
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 08:16 PM |
Reply #: 58 |
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Hi, Cat! I'm glad the workshop info came in handy this morning.
That's a nice pattern. I think I just saw the same one for sale on eBay, and I was debating whether or not to put in a bid. Yours is a good size,
too.
Laura
"Me voy a vivir tranquila
Sin pausa pero sin prisa"
--Rosana Arbelo
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hatfeathers
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| posted on 3-12-05 at 08:57 PM |
Reply #: 59 |
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I have an 1891 Harper's Bazaar pattern sheet. It hangs on my studio wall in a plastic sleeve. Bought it at an auction, they called it a map, not
sure where they though it went!
The print is on both sides and it's eye boggling! I can't imagine trying to make sense of it for practical use.
Jenn
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